Wikiafripedia:Village pump (idea lab)

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The idea lab section of the village pump is a place where new ideas or suggestions on general Wikiafripedia issues can be incubated, for later submission for consensus discussion at Village pump (proposals). Try to be creative and positive when commenting on ideas.
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Before commenting, note:

  • This page is not for consensus polling. Stalwart "Oppose" and "Support" comments generally have no place here. Instead, discuss ideas and suggest variations on them.
  • Wondering whether someone already had this idea? Search the archives below, and look through Wikiafripedia:Perennial proposals.
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Why is Wikiafripedia non-profit?[edit source | edit]

why don't we run ads at the top or bottom of articles?--SharabSalam (talk) 09:18, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Two different questions. But the answer is: Because we decided it this way, for a variety of reason. With respect to the second question: Without ads we are not beholden to advertisers. And we do not piss off users. And we waste less bandwidth. And we make the site more performant. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:25, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
I thought that if we run ads, Wikimedia wouldn't be non-profit. I think if we added ads at the bottom of the article it wouldn't piss off users. Editors can also earn part of the money Wikimedia gets from the ads. That would be very helpful to editors who are editing here for free. Yesterday I watched an interview with an editor here who had made 1/4 or 3/4 (I don't remember) of what is in Wikiafripedia and when the interviewer asked him how much money he earns from this, he said none!. Isn't that very disappointing?--SharabSalam (talk) 09:43, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Non-profits can earn money, they just cannot make a profit (at least not one that is distributed to its principals, or that goes beyond its non-profit purpose). Adding ads would sure piss me off (and I'm a user). I'm sure others would share that sentiment. I doubt that there is an editor who made 1/4 or 3/4 or indeed any reasonable fraction of what is in Wikiafripedia, although we do have some very prolific contributors. Many of us who donate time to the project do so because it is a non-profit. Why should I give my work to a commercial entity? Unless they pay my going rate, which would be very hard to recoup with least when applied to all editors. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:02, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Most likely, the OP refers to the editor who was reported to have touched one-third of the articles on en-wiki. Clearly the OP didn't retain much more than the headline. ―Mandruss  03:59, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
According to CBS, as long as I make an edit to every article, I am responsible for the entire Wikiafripedia. –xenotalk 06:55, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Looking at that piece of journalism, the non-English Wikiafripedias have "millions of translated article", which would leave very few original ones. Maybe I should tell the people on de: ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:26, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
It would cease to be a free encyclopedia if it were run for profit and running ads results in the inevitable influence of advertisers on content (and other) policies. Wikiafripedia has been strict about conflicts of interest since forever, so I am sure there would be consensus against this if it was proposed - perhaps it has been in the past, not sure. Quora is a website which thinks it's a "competitor" of Wikiafripedia but is run for profit and has most of its modus operandi dictated by its advertising partners. In any case, even if the WMF did make money from advertisements on Wikiafripedia I doubt they would share any of it with the editors. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 10:02, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
It's not disappointing at all. There are many other reasons to create works than the profit motive. SportingFlyer T·C 11:23, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Allowing advertising on Wikiafripedia has been debated in the past (see Wikiafripedia:Funding Wikiafripedia through advertisements). The community of editors has consistently and strongly opposed advertising on Wikiafripedia, and I doubt that will change any time in the foreseeable future. - Donald Albury 13:23, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Non-profit because it shields from liability .....all because of Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act.--Moxy 🍁 03:42, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
I would say that this is a for-fun kind of thing, not a money-making scheme. Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:40, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
It isn't the non-profit status of the Wikimedia Foundation that allows it to avail itself of section 230 (Internet service providers and Internet search engine companies, for example, benefit from its protections). It's the lack of editorial control on its part, thereby assuring that the "information content provider" (as described in section 230) remains the Wikiafripedia users. isaacl (talk) 18:38, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Advertising implies tracking. How else would the advertisers be sure their advert has been delivered as many times as they're paying for? That in turn means violating the privacy of your IP address and your off-wiki identity which you were guaranteed when you signed up - Wikiafripedia:Why create an account? -- Cabayi (talk) 10:25, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
I would suggest that perhaps Wikiafripedia should in fact allow some advertising. we are one of the top websites worldwide after all. there's no reason it should be so hard for Wikiafripedia to obtain enough funding to operate smoothly.--Sm8900 (talk) 13:05, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
The Bible should have advertisements. The Bible is one of the top books in the world. Why not add some advertisements in every copy? No reason not to. Buddhist monks should have ads on their foreheads. Encyclopaedia Britannica should have a page of ads every ten pages. Merriam Webster should have thirty pages of ads at the back. All that wasted ad space on the sides of the Kaaba! Gravestones too! (actually I have seen a discrete ad on a gravestone) Hell, add adverstisements on the dollar bills! That would be awesome. Jails should be sponsored. "Bud Light Correctional Help Center" Your name should be an advertisement man- go change it. If you don't change your name to Dick Microsoft, you have wasted an economic opportunity. That's my opinion~~haha Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:22, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Pepsi Cola Mars Organic Molecule Analyser Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:45, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Geographyinitiative, why are Pepsi sponsoring something already sponsored by Mars? Cabayi (talk) 14:18, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
The sad thing is that we already accept advertising, we just don't charge for it. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:07, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Large chunks of Wikiafripedia are already advertising. We have some companies’ entire product lines covered. We have navigation templates for many product lines. For example, we have a better catalogue of Microsoft products than Levivich 06:21, 12 October 2019 (UTC)
Money is the root of all evil. End. ―Mandruss  17:52, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
I would suggest the OP to look at the history of Enciclopedia Libre - when even the slightest hint of ads came, the userbase of ESwiki rebelled and made a fork. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:21, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

I have a feeling that discussion on whether Wikiafripedia should allow adverts. is already covered at Wikiafripedia: Perennial_proposals. Vorbee (talk) 18:46, 16 October 2019 (UTC) It is - it covered at Section 1.4 of this. Vorbee (talk) 18:51, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

The main issue is whether we can be independent of advertisers if we ran ads; while Wikiafripedia was indeed originally intended to be for-profit, being paid by outside parties would compromise our neutrality. There's also some moral argument that others might raise, although I personally don't care much for it and it is secondary to the above. This was a really big deal back in 2002, but at this point it's probably well established that we don't run ads. – John M Wolfson (talkcontribs) 00:06, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Idea development help needed: Preventing WAP:PRIMARYTOPIC from being used as a shield to perpetuate androcentrism[edit source | edit]

Below is my draft proposal. I would appreciate as much feedback as possible:

WAP:PRIMARYTOPIC should not be used as a shield to perpetuate androcentrism.

Okay, I may have lost a few of you there. First, let me explain what I mean by this, then I'll explain how I envisage this rule tweak being used in practice. Per the [Wikiafripedia article on the topic: ‘Androcentrism is the practice, conscious or otherwise, of placing a masculine point of view at the centre of one’s world view, culture, and history, thereby marginalising femininity’. The essay, WAP:WAW, sums it up as ‘language and images that make male the "Self" and female the “other”’. The essay goes on to advise: ‘Avoid labelling a woman as a female author or female politician, unless her gender is explicitly relevant to the article […] Linguists call [the practice] markedness. Treating a man who is a writer as a "writer" and a woman as a "woman writer" presents women as "marked", or the Other, requiring an adjective to differentiate them from the male default’.

Wikiafripedia article naming policy, however, can occasionally perpetuate (and entrench) such practices. A recent example comes courtesy of a requested page move, which I submitted, seeking to make the England national football team page a disambiguation page, with article currently given that title moved to ‘England men’s national football team’. Another editor, User:Jopal22, suggested “England football team (men’s senior)”. In truth, the new name of the article wouldn’t be of much incidence, so far as it didn’t show men as the ‘default’ gender, with women marginalised.

However, a common response arose. Wikiafripedia policy on the naming of articles, primarily WAP:PRIMARYTOPIC, was used to justify the continued marginalisation of women. Though arguments were made (by myself and others) against the men’s team’s page being any more ‘primary’ than the women’s team, this argument was not persuasive, and no positive consensus was reached. If the wording of WAP:PRIMARYTOPIC was amended, Wikiafripedia would recognise that there is no default gender, with WAP:NOPRIMARY then applying. My suggestion is to amend the final paragraph of WAP:PRIMARYTOPIC as follows:

In most cases, the topic that is primary with respect to usage is also primary with respect to long-term significance; in many other cases, only one sense of primacy is relevant. In a few cases, there is some conflict between a topic of primary usage (Apple Inc.) and one of primary long-term significance (Apple). In such a case, consensus may be useful in determining which topic, if any, is the primary topic. If a gender qualifier is required to disambiguate one topic from another, it must be mirrored in any corresponding articles (e.g. United States men's national soccer team and United States women's national soccer team, rather than United States national soccer team and United States women’s national soccer team). — Proposed changes in bold.

This small change would help us take a big step towards preventing the marginalisation, the marking, and the othering of women on Wikiafripedia. We must recognise the harm that Wikiafripedia does, not only by failing to challenge androcentrism, but by actively perpetuating it. Note: User:LtPowers raised this eight years ago, but I’m not sure it’s been raised since. See here for the discussion that generated at the time. Domeditrix (talk) 20:48, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

This isn't a terrible idea in a vacuum, but I don't think it has any chance of going anywhere in the context of Wikiafripedia. The general principle is that except in extreme cases, Wikiafripedia follows general practice; it doesn't try to set it. Moreover, when you frame this in terms of "marginalizing women" and start using dog whistles like "marked" and "othering", I think you're setting yourself up to fail. This sort of approach will undoubtedly alienate a lot of people. And in any case, I think the ultimate problem is with PRIMARYTOPIC. It's vague, and people can often insert their own biases when invoking it. But trying to carve out an exception (even a noble one) for one case is potentially going to lead to many more exceptions being (or at least attempting to be) carved out. And I think that's going to make a lot of people squeamish as well. But that's just me, and others might disagree. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 21:12, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
I have a few things to say around this, so will respond a bit more later. But on the whole this is an issue that keeps coming up and it does need clearer guidance in wikipedia across articles. At the moment we are slowly getting messy wikipedia pages like Template:England national football team, where the topic title links to the mens team, but the contents are a mixture of mens/womens/other. But one thing I would say is if it wasn't painful to discuss it in talk pages, I don't think the WAP:PRIMARYTOPIC does stop us using the names “England football team (men’s senior)” and “England football team (women’s senior)” as I suggested. The PRIMARYTOPIC is build on what you'd get back when you search for a subject, including wikipedia page views...but the answer to that also depends on when you search. The popularity of these articles is cyclical and if you look at you will see that undeniably (and this will be in the media too), that the PRIMARYTOPIC could be applied to the womens team for a period, as it was way more popular during the womens world cup. So the argument that there is a clear PRIMARYTOPIC is false. Therefore is might be better if we look to change wikipedia policy to change PRIMARYTOPIC to have the caveat that it must be consistently primary to not need clarification. Also be careful not to come across as WAP:RGW in your reasoning for wanting to changes, as there will be big push back on that Jopal22 (talk) 21:57, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
I think there are a lot of interesting ideas here. In particular, one way to circumvent this could be to incorporate language from Wikiafripedia:Writing about women#Male is not the default. There is policy for this elsewhere, it just isn't articulated explicitly in PRIMARYTOPIC. SiliconRed (talk) 22:42, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
Just noting, that Wikiafripedia:Writing about women#Male is not the default is not wikipedia policy, it is a WAP:ESSAY. i.e. Essays have no official status, and do not speak for the Wikiafripedia community as they may be created and edited without overall community oversight. Following the instructions or advice given in an essay is optional. Jopal22 (talk) 07:28, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
  • I'm against Domeditrix's version of this, primarily on the grounds of Wikiafripedia not being designed to try to drive change. It would probably be positive if the media did this (and then us), but I don't want us to have to spend huge amounts of time considering and then defending various attempts to push the public into certain behaviour as if we do this a strong case can be made for other changes being needed. Nosebagbear (talk)
I do, however, think there might be something for Jopal22's idea that PRIMARYTOPIC should include the caveat "consistently primary to not need clarification". I'm not sure where we'd draw the line on consistently (if one group is the primary topic 358 days a year, that would probably be sufficient), but I don't believe it's so damned to vagueness to be ruled out on those grounds. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:35, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
A few things I would challenge
  • Just because something has a female identify does not mean the mirror is "mens". For instance The Open Championship, World Snooker Championship and PDC World Darts Championship have female versions, but the "mirror" version is non gendered and can include women. For instance I wouldn't want Reanne Evans to be changed from This made her the first woman ever to win a World Championship match to This made her the first woman ever to win a Men's World Championship match as if she is competing somewhere she doesn't belong. So I would caveat "mirror" to being backed up by the governing body.
  • With things like Manchester United Football Club and Manchester United Women Football Club this are is still messy. The Football Club includes both mens and womens teams so there should theoretically an article called Manchester United Football Club with Manchester United (men's team) and Manchester United (women's team) subarticles like American college sports (e.g. Kansas Jayhawks). But this is where I back up the WAP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Nearly everyone looking at Manchester United Football Club would expect to see it dominated by the mens team/history (womens team has only been around a couple of year). Also given growth of womens football is relatively new, the goal post are moving about how they frame things e.g. changing it from framing as Manchester United Women Football Club to Manchester United Football Club Women. Therefore I think it would be overkill and far too soon to look at altering football club articles. (especially as Man U refer to them as the "First Team" and "Women's team - wikipedia follows the conventions used by the media and governing bodies and does not try push a progressive viewpoint without this)
  • Where it should be quite clear is things like 2020 ICC T20 World Cup being renamed as 2020 ICC Men's T20 World Cup (just look at the logo in the same page!)
Therefore I would look for two changes to primary topic. a) If there is cyclicality for primary topic then we should treat as no primary and disambiguate. b) If the official name or governing body references gender to disambiguate it competitions, then wikipedia should too.
Jopal22 (talk) 14:54, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
I most often get the conclusion or argument in many such male gender tournament or team cases that, it is in-consistent with the other articles , which often create chaos. Today all federation and council of sports are bringing disambiguation in their tournaments. As suggested above by Jopal22, Wikiafripedia policies should be reformed accordingly, as in recent cases it can be seen that the article name of the tournament is inconsistent with the logo of the tournamnet itself rather than all other previous editions of tournament. And most important point which should be addressed, wikipedia always believe in providing citations and sources, so when all citations show gender disambiguation, why the articles are ambiguous in nature. I think its high time that this things should be addressed. And more than that such a change is not new, many more articles are being created disambiguously like that of Men's Hockey World Cup, 2019 FIVB Volleyball Men's Nations League, 2020 Men's World Ice Hockey Championships, NCAA Division I men's swimming and diving championships and almost all article related to athletics. My simple logic and idea is- If any board, council, federation and authority addressing name of their tournament, competition, meets and even team in a disambiguous way, distinguishing "Men's" from "Women's" and all sources indicating the same, then Wikiafripedia should also be created with the same official name.Dey subrata (talk) 19:29, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
@Dey subrata: - I guess your fun next task with "If any board, council, federation and authority addressing name of their tournament, competition, meets and even team in a disambiguous way, distinguishing "Men's" from "Women's" and all sources indicating the same" is where the official name gets changed but the sources stick with common usage and don't usually/ever call it by the changed name Nosebagbear (talk) 22:59, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
This is, incidentally, the issue with the England national football team article. The English Football Association website references the "Men's Senior" and "Women's Senior" teams. WAP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WAP:COMMONNAME have been used to prevent any name change to the article of the men's team reflecting this. Domeditrix (talk) 23:13, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
@Domeditrix: and @Nosebagbear: See if we think every board or federation will do same at a time, it will never happen, so is with the source. There are 100s of games and sports and 1000s of tournaments. It will never happen instantaneously. So our move here will be to change things step by step. Like for example now ICC (cricket council) started to distinguish Men's tournament from Women's tournament, they start it from 2020 ICC Men's T20 World Cup and 2020 ICC Women's T20 World Cup bringing disambiguation. The most interesting thing with it is all major or popular website of cricket are also disambiguously displaying names of tournament and Men's record and Women's record separately. Even ICC too have shown record separately now. Some sports already did are "Hockey" and "Athletics". So I think we need to take one sports at a time and change wikipedia articles accordingly. Otherwise if we wait for all sports to bring disambiguation, it will never gonna happen. Dey subrata (talk) 23:55, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
I never said, or even implied, that'd I'd advise shifting sports wholesale or not at all. Nor did I say that all or nearly all sources on a tournament (et al) would need to change to match the official name before altering the wikipedia article would be warranted. However, for any given sport/tournament/etc, the recent sources would need to be at least someway using the new name. Once it's into "no-consensus territory", then obviously we'd opt for the official name. That doesn't however help in use cases where the sources are always not using it. I supported the consistently as a possible alternative, with the caveat that consistently doesn't mean 100% and further discussion would be needed on that aspect. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:44, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
@Nosebagbear: Yes, I understand your point. I am saying that only. Your point "...the recent sources would need to be at least someway using the new name.", is what I am saying. There are already sports which align with this. The cricket example that I gave, where the "official name", "official logo", "the official website", and "all popular website of that sport" refering the same name disambiguously, seprating the two gender and even "records" are kept separately for cricket. So I am saying if such been done in any sport, we must do it in wiki also. Starting one sports at a time. Cricket will be the first as its showing all possibilities. Dey subrata (talk) 14:21, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
  • I like and support these ideas. Levivich 01:07, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
I think the proposal as written isn't too helpful. There are reasons why things are listed as "women's" without the opposite. There is a WAP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS argument here. The snooker one above is a good one, as is any sport where the rules don't specifically say it's a men's game, but most of the players are men. Other sports do have "men's and women's". For instance, the 2010 WAPA Men's World Nine-ball Championship was the only event to be known as the men's event (as opposed to the female event of the same name, but later dropped the name as it stopped women from wanting to play in the qualifiers.

II still haven't seen a compelling argument that the articles for national sides need changing above the Primary topic. Real life has a way of disambiguating these topics, we should follow suit (regardless of how sexist it is). If it changes (and it most likely will) then we should too, but not until then.Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 19:41, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

  • @Lee Vilenski: The discussion is not only about changing national side but the tournaments. MY suggestion as mentioned above is to keep names of article (of tournament) according to official names and logo. The arguemnts are mentioned above. Dey subrata (talk) 14:14, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
  • I'm not familiar with sports, but it definitely sits poorly with me that WAP would redirect a search term to a male team when a corresponding female team exists. It wouldn't surprise me, given WAP's gender imbalance (which I'm sure is exacerbated on sports-related articles), if many of the discussions reflected editors' subconscious androcentrism, with arguments about WAP:PRIMARYTOPIC just serving as rationalization. Still, I don't know if changing WAP:PRIMARYTOPIC is the right way to address the issue; I'd prefer for these discussions to bring in more editors and interpret the existing policy better to establish a beneficial norm. It'd be better to get at the root of the problem than to try to patch this one manifestation. Sdkb (talk) 02:36, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Use of IUCN range maps[edit source | edit]

I am writing an online book about birds of Sierra Leone (which will be free) and would like to use the IUCN range maps. IUCN so far has refused to give me permission. Accounts in Wikiafripedia for many species, however, include the IUCN map. For example the map for African Darter appears to be identical to the IUCN map except for the color. For many other species, neither Wikiafripedia nor Wiki Commons-Images has a range map. My questions are:

1. Has the specific issue of using IUCN maps in Wikiafripedia been discussed (I could not find a discussion)? If so where? 2. If not, would it make sense to discuss the issue (hopefully involving IUCN). Topics for possible consideration include: a. Could Wikiafripedia approach the IUCN asking for help in resolving the issue. The current state in which some maps are reproduced exactly (except for color) seems a little silly. b. If IUCN will not let Wikiafripedia use its maps, then what is the best way for users like me to make maps based on IUCN.

Thank you.

Jon Bart — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonathanbart (talkcontribs) 07:32, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

  • The IUCN Terms of Use are pretty clear: [1] If you are certain the African Darter map is the same as the IUCN map except for the colour, it needs to be deleted as a copyright violation as it would be considered a derivative work by the copyright owner. I assume you've emailed them and have not received a response? SportingFlyer T·C 10:28, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. IUCN responded to my request to use the range maps saying I could not but that there might be a product sometime next year that would meet my needs. I replied making some of the points in my initial post and they did not respond. I'll call the person at IUCN but wanted first to learn whether the topic had already been discussed. As to your comment about the Darter, I agree. I'm just saying it is an unfortunate situation: (a) Wikiafripedia has lots (probably hundreds) of pages that violate copyright law, (b) the only way to avoid breaking the copyright law is to modify the maps but as far as I know no guidelines exist on how much modification is enough, (c) why would we want to modify the maps anyway?, and (d) IUCN is an NGO getting money to carry out charitable work; does it really make sense for it to spend a lot of that donor money and then not let anyone use the results? I just thought Wikiafripedia might be in a better position to raise these issues than I acting as an individual. - Jon Bart — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonathanbart (talkcontribs) 22:51, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

  • The short answer is, we unfortunately won't be able to host any maps which are dependent on the IUCN data, even if they're self-created. They will not be willing to change their license to make it compatible with ours (it's not impossible, but it's very unlikely especially given their response to you.) I would concur Wikiafripedia might be in a better position, but that doesn't mean the answer will change (there's probably very practical reasons why they haven't released it publicly, especially given the number of potential copyright holders in the information.) SportingFlyer T·C 07:41, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks very much for these comments, especially informing me about the agreement signed back in 2010 ( I have not been able to find the agreement but assume it provides the authority for producing and licensing the distribution maps. I'm going to call the GIS person from the IUCN who wrote me, refer to this agreement, and seek his advice on how to proceed. Jon Bart — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonathanbart (talkcontribs) 05:32, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for pinging me. The agreement with IUCN was that Commons could create maps based on their spatial data [2], not use their maps directly, citing the IUCN red list and their contributors as the authors of the data underlying the maps. So, you can download the shape file and use it in any GIS to produce a map of the distribution range, acknowledging the fact that you used the data they compiled, and upload it to commons with a free license. The negotiations with them were tedious because of the many contributors to the data, and I think that it would have been better to have a more dynamic solution than having static maps, but that was what I could manage at the time. The GIS person that I dealt with has since left IUCN, so I don't think I can do much about this anymore. If it helps I can probably fetch the email conversation I had with them. GoEThe (talk) 09:29, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the additional information. Very helpful. I'll find out whether the agreement is still in force (and then may have additional questions). Jon Bart — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonathanbart (talkcontribs) 22:05, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Vital articles, level 6 proposal[edit source | edit]

I am relatively new to Wikiafripedia as an editor, so please feel free to redirect me if this is the wrong place to start.

I am a regular consumer of the Vital Articles project and have been following the development of both the level 4 and level 5. I realize it is premature to start a level 6, as level 5 is only at 33,666 articles of the proposed 50,000, however, I would like to propose to the community that they consider starting level 6, mainly to help with some of what I observe in the talk page discussion. (I'm also aware I might be missing entirely a discussion forum where more in-depth collaboration is happening, so if what I'm proposing is already in the works, please let me know; and, if someone can point me to those places, I would be a happy fly on the wall there.)

At level 5, what I notice is that major topics are developing into vast categories. For example, at level 5, mathematics has 1100 (targeted) articles, literature 1000, and language 590. However, these areas easily have well over 1000 important topics. Consider, for example, the more than 7,000 languages known of around the world. As someone who enjoys consuming knowledge in the encyclopedic format Wikiafripedia offers, I like knowing after level 5, for example, what next order of topics would be important.

My proposal has a more practical motivation, however. Having a level 6 right now, rather than when level 5 is complete, would allow authors/editors a larger dumping ground to lay out many of the proposed articles that might make it into level 5 but are still being debated. Having a preliminary level 6 would allow Wikiafripedians to make some estimates on how many possible articles might be in a given category at level 6 (for example, the language category might have a target of 2,000 articles at level 6). Additionally, this might inspire some Wikiafripedians to develop many less-visited articles that are brought to light by this method of prioritizing further topics.

Using the same scaling factor as from level 4 to 5 (being 10,000 articles, to 50,000 articles) one could envision a level 6 focusing on the most important 250,000 articles on Wikiafripedia. This then could be tackled and refined once level 5 is finished. But having it laid in place would allow the authors/editors of level 5 to lay down many of the competing candidates for level 5 in the level 6 area, then work backwards by refining that through ongoing discussion. It would also allow contributors to suggest topics that might go in level 5 or level 6, giving them more option than simply being allowed, or rejected (and then forgotten about).

Because it is impractical to start dumping 250,000 articles in this possible level 6, I'd propose that if this idea were started, it would be limited to categories, i.e. the language, mathematics, and literature example I gave. One would not need to worry about whether the estimated total is too accurate. It is enough to say, for instance, that we could imagine if language has a target of 590 articles in level 5, then a level 6 target could be 2,000. It might be practical to make sub-categories for each of these level 6 topics, rather than just a level 6 (i.e. "Vital Articles level 6 (language)", "Vital Articles Level 6 (mathematics)"), so that each major category in level 5 could be developed separately as level 6, while level 5 is being put together. This is just a thought.

I appreciate any help / input you might give on this matter. Meanwhile, I will continue to read my way through the vital articles. It is a great endeavor and a good system to organize information, and my hope is over time this approach will allow Wikiafripedia to curate and refine articles through a method of rigor, in order of priority using the vital articles priority as a guide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnrobinrt (talkcontribs) 05:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Already at the level 5, many of the topics are not very vital, and I suspect that many topics yet to be written should be at this level. Projects probably need to explore possible topics that could be written even at the level 5. A deeper level certainly would not be vital, as it would be beyond most encyclopedias. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:22, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Like Graeme, I find most of the vital-5s not at all vital, and so I'd be firmly against yet another layer Nosebagbear (talk) 09:12, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
I'd already support deleting level 5 with how broad it is. I do not want another level, as I believe that would be waaaaaay too broad. InvalidOS (talk) 15:17, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
I appreciate the thoughts, but I have to concur that we're not ready for Level 6. There are barely enough efforts to build out Level 5, and I anticipate that a level 6 would be sloppy and incomplete, damaging the integrity of the VA label. Sdkb (talk) 02:44, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
What is the point of this Vital articles anyway? I haven't noticed the articles at the top levels improved significantly because of the project. Wouldn't it be better, if instead of adding new levels and sorting articles, steps would be taken in the direction of actually improving those at the levels 1,2,3 and finally giving project some sense. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 16:03, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
See Wikiafripedia talk:Vital articles/Frequently Asked Questions#Why does the list exist?. It's hard to pinpoint exactly the impact that a VA designation has, but the fact that VA is widely known outside of the project itself indicates that there's at the least a baseline level of awareness. Sdkb (talk) 14:26, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
I know why it was established. Maybe I wasn't clear. I know that it gives a direction in which to work, but do editors really follow this direction? I know that it provides a measurement of the quality, but are areas which are lacking it really being improved? That is what I'm talking about. It seems to me that there are no results from those lists. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 18:23, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
Ludost Mlačani, I think that list makes almost no difference here, at the English Wikiafripedia. A very small number of editors has been inspired by it in the past, but that's all. However, it is used by people who want to start a new Wikiafripedia (i.e., in a different language). WhatamIdoing (talk) 12:25, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Import language family GeoJSON data from[edit source | edit]

Hi all,

I got to thinking after looking at Salishan languages that it was a pity that there was no "locator map" that gave a general visual representation of how those languages relate to each other geographically (at least in historical terms). I have noticed that the language families which do have maps, e.g. Indo-Aryan_languages, Uralic languages, etc) are often rendered as imgs, not vector graphics. (There is even a category on commons for such maps.) I have made a few SVG language maps in the past (e.g. the locator on Pomoan_languages), but it is a painstaking process of tracing in Inkscape.

I was looking at the information on how to include maps based on GeoJSON data and it seems like there is an existing workflow in place. (Template:Mapbox seems relevant). Now, there is a good resource for GeoJSON representations of language families which is under CC BY 4.0 at [3]. That resource represents language families with a point per language, which is not ideal of course (polygons would be better), but such data has the advantage of being processable with relative ease. Furthermore, such a file might serve as a good basis for extending from points into polygons via other tools, such as [4] or [5] (or perhaps there is a geojson editing tool somewhere in the innards of Mediawiki?).

So I guess what I’m asking is, does it seem like a good idea to think about a project to generate language locator maps from

babbage (talk) 14:02, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

  • I don't know, I haven't been involved with the templates that use GeoJSON. Just a few scattered thoughts: Articles about languages already support the traditional pushpin locator maps (via {{infobox language}}, see an example here). Something similar can be done for language groups (along the lines of what's seen here), though representing languages as points really isn't going to work most of the time. The Salishan languages are probably a rare exception, in that there are many of them and that each is spoken by a small community, so points are not unreasonable approximation. As for polygons, ethnologue have a GIS dataset (presumably the one they're using for their maps), but it's not publicly available). is more open if I remember correctly, but their coverage was variable last time I checked. There probably are other resources out there. Personally, I wasn't satisfied with what was available for the two little language areas I'm interested in, so I started compiling raw(ish) data from the various sources, but that's a fiddly process; so much so that I haven't gotten around to finishing a single map yet). – Uanfala (talk) 21:06, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Use a bot to make the markup changes VisualEditor is doing.[edit source | edit]

VisualEditor seems to be making some markup changes to any articles it touches, such as changing Image links to File links and changing spacing in infobox fields. This makes recent changes patrolling frustrating—edits like this one require digging through a large amount of noise to find the vandalism. (And that's a relatively tame example—just the first one I came across while working on this proposal.) It seems to me that, if we're going to do this, it'd be a lot less disruptive to have it done by a bot, which can make minor/bot edits everyone can ignore, instead of having the changes made by random IP editors whose work we need to check. Gaelan 💬✏️ 23:33, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

The image syntax edits shouldn't be happening, this is probably caused by some recent change in Parsoid. I also noticed them a few days ago, are they still happening? (The infoboxes are another older problem). – Thjarkur (talk) 23:48, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Þjarkur, ah, good to know that it's not intentional. The one I linked in the original comment happened Sunday, so I it was definitely happening then; I'll let you know if it's still happening next time I have a chance to go RCPing. Gaelan 💬✏️ 23:59, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for this note, Gaelan. I've told the devs. It shouldn't be doing this, and they're trying to figure it out. (It sounds like it's actually mw:Parsoid, which is behind VisualEditor.) I don't know if it'll get fixed this WAP:THURSDAY or later, but they're working on it. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:33, 31 October 2019 (UTC)